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OpTorch
Generalmajor


Anmeldedatum: 17.06.2002
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Wohnort: Weert (NL)

BeitragVerfasst am: Do Feb 13, 2003 11:44 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

John,

if you want me to translate it into a more convenient language, say Dutch, just say so. Laughing

A.
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nemo97
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Anmeldedatum: 04.02.2003
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Feb 17, 2003 9:01 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Alex,
It appears some are well suited in dialouge in English. I think they are simply choosing to avoid a losing arguement.

John
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TIGER
Brigadegeneral


Anmeldedatum: 12.06.2002
Beiträge: 741
Wohnort: Köln

BeitragVerfasst am: Di Feb 18, 2003 11:06 am    Titel: Oh no! Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
It appears some are well suited in dialouge in English. I think they are simply choosing to avoid a losing arguement.


Laughing

I don`t think so.
On this weekend more than 10 Million people worldwide demonstrated against the war. (Even in Britain there were 2 Million people on the street, that means every 30 th englishman was demonstrating agains the war) If you remind, how many people live in London then this is an enourmous number. Many, many people weren`t there who have got the same opinion. Even in America there were many demonstrations. I didn`t heard of just ONE demonstration FOR war!

I think nobody wants to convince somebody who doesn`t want to be convinced. By the way this was not my intention when I placed this post.

I just wanted to know your opinons.

I´m scared of some of your opinions and I definetly HOPE that most americans got another opinion. Jadtigers post make me believe that. By the way: Thank you for your interesting post, Jadtiger.

But everybody has got the right for hin own opinion and I will not try to convince you of mine.

Thats all I want to say for that.

TIGER
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nemo97
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Anmeldedatum: 04.02.2003
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Feb 19, 2003 6:39 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Tiger,
60-70% of Americans consistantly show in polls support for removing what we perceive to be a threat by means of WMD developments in Iraq & replacing Saddam.

As for the marches, it amazes me the numbers, particularly those of the London march, keep growing. First it was reported @ 500,000, then 750,000 & now you're telling me 2,000,000! Maybe the English were really there to see what an ass Jesse Jackson can make of himself when he opens his mouth. Rolling

Another thing about statistics... tell me why 11 of the 15 Security Council members actually support an armed disarming of Iraq.

Why does 19 of the 22 NATO Allies support an armed disarming of Iraq?

To me, those numbers are 70%+ in favor of the United States' and the United Kingdom's position. Are we really a minority in trying to forcefully disarming Iraq or is there one small detail that the French have veto power on the Security Council and also oppose our position? See, to me, that's called interference of the majority's will.Wink

To be supportive of something I must go stand on a street corner in the snow and freeze my butt off now? Nah, I will simply let my elected officials know directly. I don't need to be around a bunch of people when I could be earning money by working instead. Wink

Scared of my opinions? My words won't kill. Guess you'd be upset knowing I support capital punishment and private gun ownership among other things.Wink

I will never deny another his right to his point of view. I may think you're uninformed or misguided, but never deny your right to free thought.

I remain confident that after Iraq has had a regime change and the records and weapons are uncovered you will see the USA, the UK and our allies (yes, we have allies) will be able to expose what they are unable to expose to the public now.
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Darth Olli
Unteroffizier


Anmeldedatum: 29.08.2002
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BeitragVerfasst am: Di März 04, 2003 8:51 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Letter to the London Observer, from Terry Jones (Monty Python)
by Terry Jones ? Sunday February 23, 2003


I'm really excited by George Bush's latest reason for bombing Iraq: he's running out of patience. And so am I!

For some time now I've been really pissed off with Mr Johnson, who lives a couple of doors down the street. Well, him and Mr Patel, who runs the health food shop. They both give me queer looks, and I'm sure Mr Johnson is planning something nasty for me, but so far I haven't been able to discover what.
I've been round to his place a few times to see what he's up to, but he's got everything well hidden. That's how devious he is. As for Mr Patel, don't ask me how I know, I just know - from very good sources - that he is, in reality, a Mass Murderer. I have leafleted the street telling them that if we don't act first, he'll pick us off one by one.

Some of my neighbours say, if I've got proof, why don't I go to the police? But that's simply ridiculous. The police will say that they need evidence of a crime with which to charge my neighbours. They'll come up with endless red tape and quibbling about the rights and wrongs of a pre-emptive strike and all the while Mr Johnson will be finalising his plans to do terrible things to me, while Mr Patel will be secretly murdering people. Since I'm the only one in the street with a decent range of automatic firearms, I reckon it's up to me to keep the peace. But until recently that's been a little difficult.

Now, however, George W. Bush has made it clear that all I need to do is run out of patience, and then I can wade in and do whatever I want! And let's face it, Mr Bush's carefully thought-out policy towards Iraq is the only way to bring about international peace and security. The one certain way to stop Muslim fundamentalist suicide bombers targeting the US or the UK is to bomb a few Muslim countries that have never threatened us. That's why I want to blow up Mr Johnson's garage and kill his wife and children.

Strike first! That'll teach him a lesson. Then he'll leave us in peace and stop peering at me in that totally unacceptable way.

Mr Bush makes it clear that all he needs to know before bombing Iraq is that Saddam is a really nasty man and that he has weapons of mass destruction - even if no one can find them. I'm certain I've just as much justification for killing Mr Johnson's wife and children as Mr Bush has for bombing Iraq. Mr Bush's long-term aim is to make the world a safer place by eliminating 'rogue states' and 'terrorism'. It's such a clever long-term aim because how can you ever know when you've achieved it? How will Mr Bush know when he's wiped out all terrorists? When every single terrorist is dead? But then a terrorist is only a terrorist once he's committed an act of terror.

What about would-be terrorists? These are the ones you really want to eliminate, since most of the known terrorists, being suicide bombers, have already eliminated themselves. Perhaps Mr Bush needs to wipe out everyone who could possibly be a future terrorist?

Maybe he can't be sure he's achieved his objective until every Muslim fundamentalist is dead? But then some moderate Muslims might convert to fundamentalism. Maybe the only really safe thing to do would be for Mr Bush to eliminate all Muslims? It's the same in my street. Mr Johnson and Mr Patel are just the tip of the iceberg. There are dozens of other people in the street who I don't like and who - quite frankly - look at me in odd ways. No one will be really safe until I've wiped them all out. My wife says I might be going too far but I tell her I'm simply using the same logic as the President of the United States. That shuts her up. Like Mr Bush, I've run out of patience, and if that's a good enough reason for the President, it's good enough for me. I'm going to give the whole street two weeks - no, 10 days - to come out in the open and hand over all aliens and interplanetary hijackers, galactic outlaws and interstellar terrorist masterminds, and if they don't hand them over nicely and say 'Thank you', I'm going to bomb the entire street to kingdom come. It's just as sane as what George W. Bush is proposing - and, in contrast to what he's intending, my policy will destroy only one street.

Terry Jones
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nemo97
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Anmeldedatum: 04.02.2003
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BeitragVerfasst am: Sa März 08, 2003 6:20 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

I guess I can say only one thing,
"Thank GOD G.W. is my country's leader and understands the importance of ridding the very real threat posed to America by a sinister man like Saddam.

As G.W. said last night in his news conference, we will do this with the willing allies (outnumbering those obstructionists) with or without U.N. Security Council approval. America does possess the right to wage war without anyone else's permission (read my Constitution and you'll see that to be true). We will do the right thing. We will execute swiftly. We will be victorious. We will make the world a safer place. Will will liberate the Iraqi people from tyranny. We will not have naysayers hold us back from doing what is moral & justifiable.

History will show G.W.'s resolve to be right and just while those wishing to appease tyranny to look the fool.

Cheers,
nemo97
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Librarian Valorous
Stabsgefreiter


Anmeldedatum: 18.02.2003
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BeitragVerfasst am: So März 09, 2003 4:16 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:

America does possess the right to wage war without anyone else's permission (read my Constitution and you'll see that to be true).


Last time I checked the United States were a member of the UN Organisation, havening approved the Charta of the UN. This treaty is valid International Law and by this a part of the federal US order of justice and law. To violate the UN charta means for the US to break their own law. By the way, your constitution says nothing about a right of the federal government to wage war as it pleases. Quite the contrary. The federal US governmet has to pay regard and respect to its own laws. Whether the US government will act according to this is another question. Apparently it won't.

If you wish to investigate on this any deeper, I may refer you to the ASIL-ListServ of the American Society for International Law. There is NO DOUBT about the FACT that a war against Iraq without UN approval is not backed by any law, whether International Law or federal US law, including the Constitution of the USA.

By waging a war withoutUN approval the US will step outsidethe civilisedworld community, IMHO. And futurewill tell whether it is the USA or UN that will suffer dearly. Anyway, I know who will win: [old]Europe. Nothing forges better than a common opponent.
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TIGER
Brigadegeneral


Anmeldedatum: 12.06.2002
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Wohnort: Köln

BeitragVerfasst am: Mo März 10, 2003 10:52 am    Titel: . Antworten mit Zitat

I only want to say one thing:(especially to Nemo)

Next week we will have a war. Nothing will stop that. Not the Un, or any other institution, will it be the right or not. But at that point America will show anybody, that they don`t care about anybody or any institution.

If this will happen, the UN, the NATO and all other treaties with America are useless and one opinion will be shown: America simply doesn`t cares about anything then themselves. They will do, whatever they want. They will attack whom they want and they will not tolerate other opinions.

Sorry to say that but this kind of dealing with the world will be in my eyes more dangerous for the world than Iraq or anything else.

I don`t want to think what will happen, when North-Korea will be the next on their list. What will happen, when China will say "VETO" on the next Resolution-Vote. Perhaps they will be the next in the "Axis of Evil".

It is so obvious, that the war on the Gulf will come and nobody can stop it because ONE Country (Great Britain and Spain will NEVER get a real citizen supportment!) wants the war! The message in this war is: You don?t have a proof but you think of this and that and this opinion is enought for an Preventive-Attack. This Attack is an unprovocated attack on a country that is lead by a murderer but in the wohle world there are many other countries like that. In Tschetchenia America don?t care about the people, the Americans don?t care about the Israelic attacks and so on.

All the proofs that America showed to legitimize a war were fakes (as far as I know).

No country in the world will be save of the American Way, because when you don?t agree with their opinion you will be blown away. You could be a danger to Americas way of life!

The reason, why the UN ,the nato and the "Völkerrecht"I don`t know the english word! were born was that no single country should decide about peace and war and to save ALL people. When the war begins all this will be past.

The message of the US governments behaviour is: We will beat first, and then we will see, if it war correct or not, because we THINK it is correct.
If you educate children in this way it will be a wonderful part of the community, when it is grown up.

My opinion is, that Saddam must be imprisioned or killed, like many other dictators
in the world but it must happen on another way.

Perhaps you`ll see this different, because you live in America but the world will be a much worse place when America will declare war next week without the agreement of the UN. Perhaps in 10 years you will see this, too.

I hope I`m wrong with my bad future-view but I don`t think so.

Chris
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Librarian Valorous
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Anmeldedatum: 18.02.2003
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mo März 10, 2003 12:03 pm    Titel: I totally agree Antworten mit Zitat

with Tiger here. Can't say anymore.

By the way, Völkerrecht is International Law. Writen with capitols Very Happy
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nemo97
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Anmeldedatum: 04.02.2003
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mi März 19, 2003 3:29 am    Titel: tick, tock, tick, tock... Antworten mit Zitat

and so goes the clock.

Y'all are simply amazing. All the anti-American sentiment spewed out of the mouths of the German & French leaders (especially the French). The threat of a veto against any follow up resolution to 1441 by the French is ridiculous and uncalled for. Maybe the anti-war protesters were right, this is a war about oil. Ahem, oil for France via the contracts they have with "President" Hussein.

There is obviously nothing to change the minds of those who will not open up and think. I guess the little fact that Hussein has ignored each and every resolution placed on Iraq since 1991 doesn't matter to you. I guess the fact he still maintains stockpiles of WMD doesn't matter to you. I guess the fact he hates America (along w/ most terrorist groups) and would probably not hesitate to align with them if it means gaining the avenue to deal a blow to America doesn't matter to you. I guess the fact he has murdered 1,500,000 of his own citizens doesn't matter to you. I guess the fact torture and rape are a regular part of his regime's regimen doesn't matter to you.

Without dragging this out any futher, I guess the fact he is one of the world's leading human rights violators does not matter to you will not change your mind.

The answer is quite easy really, you hate President George W. Bush and his political beliefs. So be it. I pray you & your's never need our help to quell a totalitarian regime oppressing you because I doubt the Americans will forget too easily the backstabbing endured by our allies.

nemo97
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Darth Olli
Unteroffizier


Anmeldedatum: 29.08.2002
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mi März 19, 2003 9:34 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

THANK GOD! There are Americans like Micheal Moore, Sean Penn, Martin Sheen and Millions people more who don't believe the gossip of the non-elected oil connection in the White House.

THEY are really patriots!
_________________
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Librarian Valorous
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mi März 19, 2003 11:48 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Regarding Sean Penn I respectfully disagree with you Darth. He is not necesarrily a patriot, rather an idiot because he allowed the regime in Iraq to use him as a tool for their own purposes. But I totallyagree with your implied thought that patriotism does not require one to jump from the chair and scream "YES!" each time the government says something. True patriotism is (formost) the ability to stand up and oppose the government when they are about to do something really wrong. It is about guts, not mainstream agreement. And as I read, 54% of all americans oppose a war against Iraq undercurrent circumstances. Thiswholestory is one more proof that those who think less usually speak more and much louder.
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nemo97
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BeitragVerfasst am: Do März 20, 2003 8:22 am    Titel: Librarian... Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
And as I read, 54% of all americans oppose a war against Iraq undercurrent circumstances.


Where in the world did you see these poll numbers? For the last few weeks all I've read, seen, heard are 55-60% of Americans "polled" support the President's position & support our intended actions with or without U.N. approval. The average American understands the ramifications (at least I hope so!) of the war on terror and the link with Saddam.

Seriously, where'd you get the 54%?

nemo97
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Darth Olli
Unteroffizier


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BeitragVerfasst am: Do März 20, 2003 10:47 am    Titel: A Letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush Antworten mit Zitat

Monday, March 17, 2003
A Letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush on the Eve of War


George W. Bush
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Washington, DC


Dear Governor Bush:

So today is what you call "the moment of truth," the day that "France and the rest of world have to show their cards on the table." I'm glad to hear that this day has finally arrived. Because, I gotta tell ya, having survived 440 days of your lying and conniving, I wasn't sure if I could take much more. So I'm glad to hear that today is Truth Day, 'cause I got a few truths I would like to share with you:

1. There is virtually NO ONE in America (talk radio nutters and Fox News aside) who is gung-ho to go to war. Trust me on this one. Walk out of the White House and on to any street in America and try to find five people who are PASSIONATE about wanting to kill Iraqis. YOU WON'T FIND THEM! Why? 'Cause NO Iraqis have ever come here and killed any of us! No Iraqi has even threatened to do that. You see, this is how we average Americans think: If a certain so-and-so is not perceived as a threat to our lives, then, believe it or not, we don't want to kill him! Funny how that works!

2. The majority of Americans -- the ones who never elected you -- are not fooled by your weapons of mass distraction. We know what the real issues are that affect our daily lives -- and none of them begin with I or end in Q. Here's what threatens us: two and a half million jobs lost since you took office, the stock market having become a cruel joke, no one knowing if their retirement funds are going to be there, gas now costs almost two dollars -- the list goes on and on. Bombing Iraq will not make any of this go away. Only you need to go away for things to improve.

3. As Bill Maher said last week, how bad do you have to suck to lose a popularity contest with Saddam Hussein? The whole world is against you, Mr. Bush. Count your fellow Americans among them.

4. The Pope has said this war is wrong, that it is a SIN. The Pope! But even worse, the Dixie Chicks have now come out against you! How bad does it have to get before you realize that you are an army of one on this war? Of course, this is a war you personally won't have to fight. Just like when you went AWOL while the poor were shipped to Vietnam in your place.

5. Of the 535 members of Congress, only ONE (Sen. Johnson of South Dakota) has an enlisted son or daughter in the armed forces! If you really want to stand up for America, please send your twin daughters over to Kuwait right now and let them don their chemical warfare suits. And let's see every member of Congress with a child of military age also sacrifice their kids for this war effort. What's that you say? You don't THINK so? Well, hey, guess what -- we don't think so either!

6. Finally, we love France. Yes, they have pulled some royal screw-ups. Yes, some of them can be pretty damn annoying. But have you forgotten we wouldn't even have this country known as America if it weren't for the French? That it was their help in the Revolutionary War that won it for us? That our greatest thinkers and founding fathers -- Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, etc. -- spent many years in Paris where they refined the concepts that lead to our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? That it was France who gave us our Statue of Liberty, a Frenchman who built the Chevrolet, and a pair of French brothers who invented the movies? And now they are doing what only a good friend can do -- tell you the truth about yourself, straight, no b.s. Quit pissing on the French and thank them for getting it right for once. You know, you really should have traveled more (like once) before you took over. Your ignorance of the world has not only made you look stupid, it has painted you into a corner you can't get out of.

Well, cheer up -- there IS good news. If you do go through with this war, more than likely it will be over soon because I'm guessing there aren't a lot of Iraqis willing to lay down their lives to protect Saddam Hussein. After you "win" the war, you will enjoy a huge bump in the popularity polls as everyone loves a winner -- and who doesn't like to see a good ass-whoopin' every now and then (especially when it 's some third world ass!). So try your best to ride this victory all the way to next year's election. Of course, that's still a long ways away, so we'll all get to have a good hardy-har-har while we watch the economy sink even further down the toilet!

But, hey, who knows -- maybe you'll find Osama a few days before the election! See, start thinking like THAT! Keep hope alive! Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil!!

Yours,

Michael Moore
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Librarian Valorous
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Anmeldedatum: 18.02.2003
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BeitragVerfasst am: Do März 20, 2003 11:37 am    Titel: - Antworten mit Zitat

Nemo, I have to admit I don't recall where I read those numbers yesterday. Shame on me for this Sad

A good read, however, can always be found here:
http://scalzi.com/whatever.htm

I am not too happy with all of this, especially with the freezing relations between Germany and the USA. I consider myself a big friend of the american people and I lovethe USA. On 9/11 I was in San Antonio and watched the twin-towers fall together with my texan friends. I witnessed the impact of this attack on the american heart first hand. As matter of fact, it impacted on my own heart also. I am a firm believer that justicehas to bedone to everyone and that it is about time to get rid of the evil and remove the threats to our, the western, way of life and our libertys.

I do not oppose a war against Iraq, in principle I consider it just. However, the war is not a purpose of its own. The goal of any just war must be to defend what we believe to be undisposable, the sytem of values . But the way how the Bush administration simply walked all over the international community from the very begining, displaying, implenting and maintaining the rule of strength, not the rule of justice and law, was very disturbing for me. I may add here that I carry nothing but contempt for my own (german) backboneless government, backing in under elections, not defending the very human rights we are sworn in to protect. Under current circumstances I consider a war against Iraq rather as treason to those values than protection of them. I can only hope thatthedamage inflicted will be as small as possible.
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