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when to start teching?

 
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jadtiger
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Anmeldedatum: 09.02.2003
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BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Dez 11, 2004 9:18 pm    Titel: when to start teching? Antworten mit Zitat

i wonder if people think of using tech as a strategy to win, as opposed to teching as a last resort to avoid losing.

this would be:

(A) teching strategically vs. (B) teching in desperation

in my experience, not many try option (A), but most resort to (B) when the game is all but lost.

IMHO, tech is a part of the game, and can be approached from a strategic objective -- this can lead to success. teching in desperation usually doesn't work (even if you manage to get one of the "good" techs like HB or IT). effective teching has a time and place, and can be incorporated strategically, and not just in a "hail mary" attempt at the end of the game.

i can remember times when i got HB and lost, and times when my opponent received HB or IT and i still managed to win. (in one case, my opponent rolled one tech die during UK 1, and got heavy bombers, but ended up losing the game -- he even told me afterwards that he couldn't understand why he lost.)

i think the main problem is that people believe that tech is a game-ending outcome, and once they see their opponent get HB, they either give up or their strategy goes downhill because they don't know what to do.
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Agent Smith
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Anmeldedatum: 11.10.2004
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BeitragVerfasst am: So Dez 12, 2004 3:42 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
teching in desperation usually doesn't work (even if you manage to get one of the "good" techs like HB or IT).


Yes I agree this has been something I've been thinking about for sometime, and I agree wholeheartedly with your thesis that teching out of desperation just doesn't work more often than not. That is of course unless the desperate side can get very lucky and get HBs for very little like say 30ipcs or less. Then sometimes that can help them make up the difference quickly enough. I also think that if one is smart they can take measures to reduce the effectiveness of the HailMary tech at the end of the game so that even if the loser gets lucky you will still be okay.

Zitat:
i think the main problem is that people believe that tech is a game-ending outcome, and once they see their opponent get HB, they either give up or their strategy goes downhill because they don't know what to do.


I'd agree with this too, and I like the idea of teching strategically as you put it. IMO winning with the Allies is very hard to do, and especially if the game is close in terms of piece count, and when I say hard I mean it will take time. Since this is a German site I must through in a Clauswitz reference, but as he would say if you are stronger there is no advantage for giving the weaker more time, but for them there is no other option. That is one should avoid the 30 turn games where the Allies slowly beat to death their opponent b/c really they are giving them more opportunities to turn it around. IMO tech is one way to avoid giving them time as tech greatly accelerates the game. So b/c of this I would conclude that tech is an advantage for the stronger side or the one that is winning.

Might the recent game between Hornhead and Jadtiger be a proof of this?
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jadtiger
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BeitragVerfasst am: So Dez 12, 2004 8:52 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
Might the recent game between Hornhead and Jadtiger be a proof of this?


it's not "proof," but it's what got me thinking about this topic. teching depends on a lot of luck, but there's also strategy to it.

the least strategic method is to roll in desperation (when all is lost) in hopes that somehow you'll get lucky and a 'miracle' occurs. whereas, an effective tech strategy is like anything else -- you have an objective, and you try and figure out how to best achieve it. and because tech is a gamble, sometimes you're better off not rolling, but there are other times when the conditions are right to tech.

in this year's rotr game vs. hornhead, because of the early advantage he received, i knew my best chance to win was via the tech route. so my goal was to position japan to spend heavy on tech in hopes of getting HBs. i was fortunate in that i achieved HB at the cost of 50 ipcs, but i was prepared to spend much more (100+ ipcs) in order to get it. and even if it took longer, and germany did fall to allies, i was prepared to continue playing with just japan, because sooner or later (if i was willing to spend enough) i would have both HB and IT, and that would keep me in the game.

also, because this was my aim, i deviated from my normal strategy, and didn't purchase any japanese factories on the mainland (for fear that the game might turn into a heavy bomber war), and i was happy that he focused all of his attention on germany. this enabled japan to reach the 55-60 ipc level/turn -- enough income to tech hard (30-35 ipcs/turn) AND buy infantry. so even if it ended up costing me 150 ipcs to get HB and IT, i was prepared to make the sacrifice. and even with germany gone, japan with the right techs (and enough units in play) is still capable of winning.

i contrast this with another game -- last year's rotr match vs. genpyle. it was a close game until the seventh round, where i pulled a surprise move on him with germany that forced him to surrender karelia without a fight. once this happened, he pulled back to moscow, and rolled all of his USA income in tech (a desperation move). and because he got HB right away on his first try, he thought he had the game won. but i told him that i liked my board position, and that i would continue to play (without resorting to tech myself), and eventually i got an M84 victory despite his heavy bomber advantage.

in this case, the situation was different, and the conditions were wrong to tech, so i played conventionally. heavy bombers are a great advantage, but ultimately the game is won or lost on the ground. and as i had both a unit advantage and superior board position -- i believed i could push him to an M84 defeat (which i ended up doing).

so when it comes to tech, you have to look at the board and assess the situation, and decide if it's best to tech or not tech. in the past i've lost games where my opponent teched, so i started to counter-tech defensively, when i should have played conventionally. and other times i've refrained from teching because i mistakenly believed that teching is a "cheap" way to win, and one should just lose like a man.

i don't play ADS anymore, but i agree that in general if the game turns into a stalemate (i.e. a stacking contest), the axis (with japan) has the advantage when to comes to teching, and should if the game goes 20 rounds or more.
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jadtiger
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BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Dez 18, 2004 10:06 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

i suppose you can "calculate" your chances of getting tech.

the two most desired techs are HB and IT, so if you assume that each tech will cost you on average 30 ipcs to get, by the time you've spent 90 ipcs, chances are good that you'll have one of them, right?

and as japan is in the best position to tech, if you get IT first, this will allow you to continue to mass produce infantry, and still have many ipcs left over to continue teching for HB. and if you get HB first, then it may be enough to put an end to the game.

but it's important for japan to have infantry on the ground, so that you're in a position to perform bombing raids AND claim territory. SBR alone doesn't win the game, if you are forced to surrender territory.
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Agent Smith
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BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Dez 18, 2004 10:47 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
SBR alone doesn't win the game, if you are forced to surrender territory.


This is absolutely what it is all about. Yes HBs can often times win you a game quickly, but a good opponent should know who to prevent this, even if it is a quick roll. For example, were Germany to fall back to Berlin they could keep the allies from consolidating their positions in both EEuro and WEuro. Once again it comes back to the side with the most territory and the greatest ability to maintain that which will win. So because of this I think tech must be looked at as a longer term approach to win. HBs and IT will give an advantage, but it will take a while for that advantage to fully materialize which is why teching out of desperation does not work against anybody but a mediocre player.
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