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does KFJ work?
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jadtiger
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BeitragVerfasst am: Do Dez 09, 2004 6:38 am    Titel: does KFJ work? Antworten mit Zitat

here's an earlier message i posted a while back over on the old AAMC message board:

Zitat:

i've now successfully pulled of a kjf strategy twice now in LL games and i found that it can be a very effective strategy, provided your opponent gives you an opening. i don't think kjf is something you can plan from the outset.

actually, both times i employed it, i didn't start out planning to go after japan, but when my opponent made some errors, i saw that i could capitalize and did. i'm not saying that this is the best approach, but following a manch-kwang opening, if your opponent goes for pearl, you have a very good opportunity to wipe out a number of japan's capital ships with an all out USA counterattack, and then buy bombers with usa, and position the uk air force to pick off the japanese transports.

if you've got germany contained (even if he has most of africa), you can still use this strategy to hold asia, and isolate japan. i bought conventionally (no subs with USA or factories in asia) so that i could use the bombers elsewhere (like in SBRs or over in africa) when they weren't needed to destroy jap transports. and with russia, i mainly used armor to drive the japs off the mainland. i didn't bother sending much infantry, it takes too long for them to make their way down, but armor can reach anywhere in asia within 2 turns. but overall i just purchased conventionally each round (mostly inf, and 1 bomber per turn with usa/uk). the infantry i used to contain germany, and the bombers i used along with the other air i had to destroy the jap navy.

once your opponent sees that he's been kicked off the mainland, and is only generating around 20 ipcs per turn, and that any naked transports he buys will be picked off, he'll probably surrender quickly regardless of how germany is doing.

it's very satisfying to win via KJF. Smile

but it's also easy to guard against--just make sure you don't lose your capital ships!
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Lynx
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BeitragVerfasst am: Do Dez 09, 2004 8:50 am    Titel: Re: does KFJ work? Antworten mit Zitat

jadtiger hat Folgendes geschrieben:
here's an earlier message i posted a while back over on the old AAMC message board:

Zitat:


it's very satisfying to win via KJF. Smile

but it's also easy to guard against--just make sure you don't lose your capital ships!


Hi Jadtiger,

I agree with you, that a KJF-Strategy can work. Surprised But it will be more costly and need more resources and planning. Shocked So in the most times it would be not beneficial to walk that way (Maybe it is more funny to use this strategy). Shocked

But against a good planning opponent, you would have a worse stand! Mad

Greetings
Alex (Lynx)
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jadtiger
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BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Dez 11, 2004 7:43 pm    Titel: Re: does KFJ work? Antworten mit Zitat

Lynx hat Folgendes geschrieben:

I agree with you, that a KJF-Strategy can work. Surprised But it will be more costly and need more resources and planning. Shocked So in the most times it would be not beneficial to walk that way (Maybe it is more funny to use this strategy). Shocked

But against a good planning opponent, you would have a worse stand! Mad



agreed. this is why i differentiate between a "hard" kjf vs. a "soft" kjf.

'hard' kjf means you plan to try and defeat japan from the start, and purchase things like USA subs and allied factories in asia, and commit to this strategy from the outset.

'soft' kjf (which is what i advocate) is a more flexible approach, which you try only if your opponent gives you an opening. and you avoid buying items that you will later regret if you have to abandon the KJF strategy. like allied factories in asia that will greatly help japan to advance in asia (not to mention the 15 ipc cost per IC, which the allies will not get back). USA subs are also a bad idea, as you can't trade them in later for infantry or transports if the plan fails.

but it is possible to make the 'soft' kjf strategy work primarily using allied bombers to take out japanese transports. and later if you have to abandon the strategy, the units you purchase can be used elsewhere.

KJF is much like a seven move opening check-mate in chess. it doesn't happen often, and most likely will not work against an experienced opponent. but it is a useful tool to have in your toolbox if the occasion arises. Smile
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BeitragVerfasst am: So Dez 12, 2004 3:50 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

I will also employ the soft KJF as you call it and I think you are right again about it being preferred. By not committing to a KJF you can do either so you will be fine either way. IMO what I look for if I'm going to go for Japan is what happens in Hawaii, and b/c LL reduces the amount of variance in the Pearl attack I do this less often in that ruleset. However, in ADS the Pearl attack has so much variance that it can often happen. In my ROTR game against Iron_Cross he attacked pearl hard with Japan, but only got 2 hits on offense round 1, and so I retreated my sub and attacked what was left on US1. Afterwards I had killed all but the Jap transports which I got a turn later and the US still had a bb trn left which was used in subsequent turns to pick up the islands. All in all when this happens so early it really sets Japan back too much b/c early IC purchases in Asia also slow them down, not just the Allies.
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BeitragVerfasst am: So Dez 12, 2004 8:55 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

even if KJF isn't successful, slowing down the japanese advance is very helpful to the allies -- this is what makes the opening manch-kwang attack so effective.

if germany is contained, then the longer japan is delayed from establishing mainland position, the better the allies chances of victory. so a KJF strategy doesn't necessarily have to be successful to be a success.
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Dez 13, 2004 12:36 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Yeah I guess it depends on how much of a price you are willing to pay. In ADS games I'm not willing to attack 3inf ftr with 5inf arm on R1 b/c there is too much variance. The few times I did try it I failed to take something like 55-60% of the time, and some of those times were really brutal ie Russia gets 0 hits on combat round 1 and Japan gets 3. In LL its a no brainer though, but I would think that few people would let that happen by not bidding units to Manch. However, I could be wrong about that.
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toten_hand
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Dez 13, 2004 1:41 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

I too sometimes (30-50% of the time) will go after Japan first but I will do the "hard" version if I do. I am actually a big advocate of KJF and, to my delight, think it is often too quickly dismissed by "experienced" players.

Certain criteria must be met before I will execute my Pacific Strategy (bid, africa, haw, opponent, etc.) and I will openly admit that it is not always optimal but it is just as viable/successful as other strategies. Much of this depends on your opponent rather than the strategy itself. An inexperienced or lesser skilled opponent is likely to crumble much more quickly under the thumb of a properly executed Pacific Campaign, therefore it can be more efficient than setting up the schuck in the Atlantic. I think it is obvious as to why this would be true, so I will not elaborate.

Your "soft" KJF is interesting and leaves some options open, I will definitely consider it an option under the right circumstances. But I think it would mostly likely result in Delaying Japan more than actually Killing Japan.
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BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Dez 18, 2004 10:02 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
I too sometimes (30-50% of the time) will go after Japan first but I will do the "hard" version if I do. I am actually a big advocate of KJF and, to my delight, think it is often too quickly dismissed by "experienced" players.


there are a number of good strategies that are not widely used. just because something is not "common" doesn't diminish it's effectiveness.

actually, this is along the lines of a discussion i've been having with nuno over email, regarding what seperates the "good" from the "very good" to the "great" players. the "good" players tend to have sound strategy and understand the fundamentals of the game. the "very good" build upon this and adds innovation to the basic repertoire (hence, they can sometimes 'surprise' you with a move you haven't seen before). as for the "great" players... i can only speculate, as i don't see myself at this level yet. Smile

but, as i noted to nuno in our conversation, one very underrated facets of skill is the ability to minimize mistakes. i've yet to play anything near a "mistake-free" game, but over time i've become better at eliminating some of the big, game-ending mistakes that i've made in the past. but i still get frustrated by the constant "little" mistakes i continue to make -- and these add up over time. the best way to combat this is through "discipline".

Zitat:
Your "soft" KJF is interesting and leaves some options open, I will definitely consider it an option under the right circumstances. But I think it would mostly likely result in Delaying Japan more than actually Killing Japan.


it can be either. i've actually succeeded in cutting japan off completely using this strategy, and other times, it's only served to delay the yellow tide. either way, it's worked. but the main difference is that from the "hard" kjf approach, you have to succeed, or else you jeopardize your chances of victory -- especially if you've committed a lot of resources to stopping japan, only to see the japs claim the allied IC's you bought in asia and have a navy that's too powerful for usa to attack. the "soft" approach allows you to abandon this strategy, and still be in a good position.

p.s. i want to amend my position against buying ICs and subs. i think the soft kjf can and should use purchase these items, but only if your in no danger of losing them, and they'll help to hasten japan's fall. but the last thing you want is to give japan some free factories on the mainland to build from.

a question for you: how do you employ the "hard" kjf? do you buy ICs with allies on your first turn? and how many subs are you willing to commit USA to purchasing?
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BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Dez 18, 2004 10:43 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
actually, this is along the lines of a discussion i've been having with nuno over email, regarding what seperates the "good" from the "very good" to the "great" players. the "good" players tend to have sound strategy and understand the fundamentals of the game. the "very good" build upon this and adds innovation to the basic repertoire (hence, they can sometimes 'surprise' you with a move you haven't seen before). as for the "great" players... i can only speculate, as i don't see myself at this level yet.


And this is one reason why I feel Nuno deserves to be given a great deal of respect towards his gaming ability. He simply knows too much about the fundamentals and advanced play to be the chump the AAMCers and their JCS would like to portray him to be. However, I think that b/c he gets dumped on by them he is reticent to 'share' his ideas with them, and who could blame him. I too do not think of myself as anywhere close to a great player, in fact I stink, but from what little I'm gleened from Nuno's posts I have had my eyes opened.

Zitat:
but, as i noted to nuno in our conversation, one very underrated facets of skill is the ability to minimize mistakes


I'd agree with this, but something I've noticed about Nuno's play is that he tends to make very unconventional moves which seem to defy reason. However, when you look more closely you realize there is a subtle, understated brilliance to them. Of course one has to have an open mind to appreciate this, unlike you know who. At the same time b/c his moves look stupid it plays into the old 'Nuno is a chump' debate at the other club. Of course were that true I don't think he'd have won 90% of his games.

Zitat:
i've actually succeeded in cutting japan off completely using this strategy, and other times, it's only served to delay the yellow tide. either way, it's worked.


Well I believe it was Nuno that once said that the US is the weakest power in the game. Independently they are weak as is Japan because both are island nations, and therefore depend on their navy for survivial. If Japan loses its battle fleet then the US should go after Oceania, and when Japan loses those 12ipcs including Aust, NZ, and Haw it makes it far more difficult for them to be successful on land no matter how many factories they have b/c so much of their production is tied up in ipcs they don't need to defend ie Philly, EI, Born etc. When this isn't true they will have problems.


By the way I would be very interested in reading the discussion between Nuno and yourself that sounds like it would be very 'enlightening'.
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BeitragVerfasst am: So Dez 19, 2004 7:58 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
And this is one reason why I feel Nuno deserves to be given a great deal of respect towards his gaming ability. He simply knows too much about the fundamentals and advanced play to be the chump the AAMCers and their JCS would like to portray him to be.


it's hard to argue with his winning record, so the AAMC leadership resorts to criticizing his slow play; and claim that he's won many of his games through 'boring' his opponent to death. it's a dishonest and ridiculous statement, but as we well know, the AAMC leadership is not above such deceit.

Zitat:
I'd agree with this, but something I've noticed about Nuno's play is that he tends to make very unconventional moves which seem to defy reason.


agreed, i've learned a few things from him as well, tactics that i might not have otherwise thought of myself. but this is how one improves his game -- you constantly try and learn from others. nowadays, it's rare for me to see something that really surprises me; so i appreciate innovative thinkers.

Zitat:
Well I believe it was Nuno that once said that the US is the weakest power in the game. Independently they are weak as is Japan because both are island nations, and therefore depend on their navy for survivial.


i don't agree here. each country has its pros and cons. technically, the UK is an island as well, and has less income than the US -- so that would make the brits the weakest island country, no? but the UK is closer to the action, so they're able to have a more immediate impact. the issue is how effective can a country be once it's mobilized.

Zitat:
By the way I would be very interested in reading the discussion between Nuno and yourself that sounds like it would be very 'enlightening'.


it's mostly what you would expect. he does a lot of boasting, and disparages the lack of talent in the AAMC. then he might move on to 'critique-ing' the mistakes he's seen me make in my games. Smile

we're planning on playing a match sometime next year, and so a new topic is him telling me how he's going to teach me a lesson. Laughing if he is able to show me something new, even if i lose, it will have been worth it. but i don't put much stock in people's boasts, i expect to see them backed up in action.

a while back i remember genpyle doing some boasting of his own, telling me how he's reached some higher level of play that transcends the level of understanding that i had. of course, this was before i showed him some strategies he hadn't seen (or wasn't expecting), and kicked his butt.
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BeitragVerfasst am: So Dez 19, 2004 11:46 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
agreed, i've learned a few things from him as well, tactics that i might not have otherwise thought of myself. but this is how one improves his game -- you constantly try and learn from others. nowadays, it's rare for me to see something that really surprises me; so i appreciate innovative thinkers.


Yes I would say that I learned a lot from what little I could gleen from his message board posts and what not. So since both of us agree that even we can learn something from him he must be very good indeed.

Zitat:
i don't agree here. each country has its pros and cons. technically, the UK is an island as well, and has less income than the US -- so that would make the brits the weakest island country, no? but the UK is closer to the action, so they're able to have a more immediate impact. the issue is how effective can a country be once it's mobilized.


Well I don't want to put words into the emperors mouth so I'll just say this is how I interpreted it. The US is incredibly dependant upon their navy, and b/c of this if one could destroy it they then became very weak in that they cannot really help out their allies. In fact so long as the US has a navy in the Atlantic the Uk is under no threat to be conquered even after moscow falls. Furthermore the US is very far away from the action, unlike the UK which is very close. So while the UK is also an island they do have the ability to immediately impact events in Europe/Asia. Japan has many of the same limitations/drawbacks as the US but a larger starting navy, and a greater ability to increase their production base. B/C of this I would rank the weakest countries to be the US, Japan, and the UK in that order. So perphaps it would be helpful if Nuno himself could explain how and if I'm wrong, which I may be.

It is that the ability of one nation to produce is entirely dependant upon what kind of production base they will have and vice versa.
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BeitragVerfasst am: Di Dez 21, 2004 7:31 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

jadtiger hat Folgendes geschrieben:
a question for you: how do you employ the "hard" kjf? do you buy ICs with allies on your first turn? and how many subs are you willing to commit USA to purchasing?


The answer is, it varies greatly. I would rarely buy ICs with UK or US on turn one. Something extraordinary would have to occur for me to consider this. The number of subs I would purchase with the US varies too. If I decide to KJF I usually buy 4 subs on US 1. From then it depends on what Japan (and Germany) does (do) from there.

The real key is flexibility and being able to plan out 3-5 turns with a KJF strategy. The options and opportunities are near limitless. It is hard to explain because it is such a fluid strategy.

Some things I look for or like to do with a KJF:

Send out an inferior US fleet and use the sub withdrawl rule to trap my opponent. Example: On US 1 buy 4 subs (US has trns, bb and 4sub wco sz) On US 2 take soloman islands with the trns and bb, buy 4 more subs (US has trns, bb, 4subs sos sz and 4subs wco sz) Japan sees an opportunity to kill the split US fleet and attacks. I would lose the trns and bb and retreat as many subs as possible into several sea zones cutting off shipping lanes in the pacific. The US then has options: Kill the trapped Japanese fleet in sos sz, hunt down Japanese trns with the subs now in the "back field" or maybe do both with their air assets too.

Another trap I like to set is with the UK. It doen't happen every game but, I will build an IC in India and leave Japan a 70% plus or so chance of capturing. This usually buys the US a lot of ocean in the pacific too because Japan will pull it's Air out of striking range of the US fleet(s) to capture the IC. The problem for Japan is that I would have some US bombers and some russian ftrs and arm (maybe and inf or two in per) ready to retake india and then UK produces out of the factory just before Japan goes again.

These things don't happen every game and are easier to pull off against inexperienced players (as are all tricks and strategies). It's just some of the things I look for. The thing I like best about KJF is that I feel as though I have the initiative. I am forcing the Axis to play against my plan rather than reacting to my opponents moves.
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BeitragVerfasst am: Di Dez 21, 2004 7:49 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
Wieviel militärishe Macht kann eine Mächte sein.
Dieses spiel ist auf Krieg! Nicht Wirtschaft..
"Siedlers von Catan" ist Wirtschaft. Ich mag dies


Yes no truer statement can be said. Economics play only a part in that they facilitate the military aspect, but no mistake can be made about what is important. I believe it was Napoleon who said something to the effect that time is more important than space b/c space can always be regained.

Zitat:
Du hast den Nagel auf den Kopf treffen.


And I think that is easier for me to accept now b/c if one has a truely great idea would they not want to keep it to themselves. Didn't Napoleon say something to the affect that a nation shouldn't make war with the same powers too often or else they will learn your secrets. Given this your position is not hard to understand at all. I personally don't much care to discuss strategy anymore either, but for those which I think are better than me ie the super elite such as LK, Nuno et al otherwise I'm merely helping future inferior players learn to beat me.

Zitat:
Aber ich bin kein G.W.B./Republican Parteigänger...
Das Licht, die Aufklärung...
Und von ich sah von dir, ich gelernt nichts...


Ahh but that was because the same time I began to change my mind was exactly when I quit playing ranked games at the AAMC. Once I was confident what I would do would work I had little interest in playing games there. Perphaps you should check out my ROTR games. Btw I am not a Bushie either, I've opposed him twice now, but unfortunately there aren't enough like minded people in the US to put that into effect. Just so you don't confuse me with them.
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BeitragVerfasst am: Di Dez 21, 2004 10:32 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Well if the examples you listed of my quotes are the worst things I ever said about you I think you are being melodramatic. Oh I'm still sorry, but I've read many of the more virulent things said about you at about the same time. If you don't want to play me b/c of past issues then this is fine, but if I were to have more points than you wouldn't you like to take them from me.

Zitat:
Auf Knien!


Admitting faults is the first step towards greatness. I would rather not play than to be a mediocre player, and honestly based on my AAMC games I clearly was. However, unlike many of them I think I am capable of improvement which is what keeps me playing. Out of curiousity why does the emperor play if he has it all figured out?

Zitat:
Vielleicht verstehst du nun warum normalerweise spielte ich langsam bei AAMC...


Alrighty then.

Zitat:
Zitat:
Btw I am not a Bushie either, I've opposed him twice now, but unfortunately there aren't enough like minded people in the US to put that into effect. Just so you don't confuse me with them.



Gut, gut.


So why don't you move to America and help us get 1 more vote back to freedom. Laughing

If you keeping asking me to kneel I am going to want a game even more, otherwise your unwillingness to demonstrate this to me will again make me grow bold.[/quote]
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BeitragVerfasst am: Do Dez 30, 2004 5:08 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
Admitting faults is the first step towards greatness. I would rather not play than to be a mediocre player, and honestly based on my AAMC games I clearly was.


does this mean you're quitting? Smile

Zitat:
However, unlike many of them I think I am capable of improvement which is what keeps me playing. Out of curiousity why does the emperor play if he has it all figured out?


the capacity to improve is key. unlike our favorite "emperor," i don't have much "innate" talent, and didn't start out with the game mastered. i had to learn to play through experience, and figured out the hard way what works and doesn't work. that's why i don't put much stock in people's boasts of their greatness. i've played enough games that i've seen just about everything, and rarely encounter anything new. (you'd think that everyone should get better with experience, but this doesn't seem to be the case)

but nuno and i will be playing our match soon, and i'll see for myself just what he's capable of. until then, i rather enjoy hearing him brag -- it seems to drive some people nuts, but i find it highly amusing. Smile

Zitat:
And I think that is easier for me to accept now b/c if one has a truely great idea would they not want to keep it to themselves.


this makes sence, and for most this is the case, as i don't see many top-level players willingly share their strategies. this is one area where i feel i've given back to the club's i've been a part of. i've always been open in sharing the things that i've learned. i used to feel some responsibility in passing on A&A knowledge, but now (as nuno put it in one of our conversations) i'm ready to have it die with me. Smile
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