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Heretic thought! Why still A&A???
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Anmeldedatum: 20.06.2003
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BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Jun 20, 2003 8:16 pm    Titel: Heretic thought! Why still A&A??? Antworten mit Zitat

Hi folks,

I am lurking around you for some time and I like your enthusiasm for A&A but there's a question I really would like to ask you:

From the things I could understand most of you folks are quite familiar with the working strategies in A&A and it's not a mystery that those are restricted to a few - or less 'cool'

So many of you mates are that eager to get into strategic games, but it seems no one of you ever made the switch over to the - sorry- real thingy: consims....

Would be very interested to know the reason. So many cool and awesome games out there (play myself, ASL [Addicted to this game, period!] TK, some SL for the taste of it Wink and Up Front - there's nothing better with a few mates and some beers - looking for Lock N' Load Vietnam] and you still play the same thing over and over again?

Know one can do something with bidding, but finally it's always the same, no?


Nothing to disturb your fun, just curious Very Happy

High Morale!

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BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jun 21, 2003 11:04 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Well, for myself the main reason is that none of my friends owns any CoSims and they are too expensive for a poor student like me.
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BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 22, 2003 8:32 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Hi Cu,

thanx for your reply.

Consims too expensive? As far as I know A&A stuff is as expensive as consims and the lack of opponents is no problem because of high calibre GAP's.

I know most of you here are playing with the Win map etc.. but that's nothing compared to VASSAL or Cyberboard.

But ok,

still hope of some other opinions.

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BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jun 24, 2003 1:21 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Well, I personally love CoSims, at least when they are on a strategic or an operational level. (not tactical, sorry ASL Smile )
Problems with CoSims:
- Most games need a lot of time to complete a single game.
- Lack of opponents (Every potential opponent needs to study mostly complex rules)

Advantage with A&A:
-Can play it not only ftf but also by email or online
- Several international clubs -> always opponents available + hard competion

And I believe A&A has more (not less) strategic options compared to a CoSim dealing with the same matter, just because A&A is not a CoSim and does not have to be to realistic. One Example: In a CoSim (like "World in Flames") it wouldnt hardly be possible for the Japs to build a lot of armor and attack Moscow. In A&A it is possible. Not realistic but interesting.

But as I said before I love several ConSims. Unfortunatly I dont know some that can be played by Email.
Do you know any?

PS: If you speak German you may find more response in the "Sonstiges" board
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BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jun 24, 2003 9:59 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
Problems with CoSims:
- Most games need a lot of time to complete a single game.
- Lack of opponents (Every potential opponent needs to study mostly complex rules)


Although it's true that most consims do need some good time to complete a game, this counts sometime also for an A&A match. We had games lasting 30 hours...

You're right about the rule's problem. But if a newbie can get help from a vet with the rules that should be no problem.

Zitat:
Advantage with A&A:
-Can play it not only ftf but also by email or online
- Several international clubs -> always opponents available + hard competion


Almost all consims can be played via email and as I said the GAPs (Game Assisting Progamms) are much better than the Win map thingy etc.. ASL can be played online in real time via VASL (and there are some mods out there for different games)


Zitat:
And I believe A&A has more (not less) strategic options compared to a CoSim dealing with the same matter, just because A&A is not a CoSim and does not have to be to realistic.


Huh? Sorry, but the "strategic options" in A&A are very limited (as you can see when you take a look at your own discussion Strategies here on the board - it's always the same)
Compare that with the options you have in an ASL scenario, a TK scenario or even in Up Front! No, that's certainly not a good point for A&A...


Zitat:
But as I said before I love several ConSims. Unfortunatly I dont know some that can be played by Email.
Do you know any?


Hard to find some that can't. I play regularly SL and ASL PbEM via VSQL/VASL (that can be played online, too - simply awesome) and Totaler Krieg via Cyberboard PbEM. You can do a complete turn in 1 -2 days!!!


Zitat:
PS: If you speak German you may find more response in the "Sonstiges" board


Unfortunately I can't speak German (can read it quite easily, though) but I thought the english folder here would be more alive...

Stahlregen


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Easy Company
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Anmeldedatum: 27.06.2003
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BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Jun 27, 2003 3:00 pm    Titel: PbEM Antworten mit Zitat

Panther,

you can play almost every CoSim via PbEM - as Stahlregen already told you there are great, very smart tools which allow you to play any Cosim (either as a campaign or single scenario). Even if you want to play a more exotic Cosim (the popular ones all got their PbEM tools) GAPs like Cyberboard or VASSAL allow you to build a "gamebox" for your favourite game - some even without programming knowledge. "Cyberboard designer" offers a grafic interface which can be used to create a very comfortable PbEM tool for your favourite game.

The "cyberboard player" allows you a very intelligent gameplay with auto-protocolling your moves, allow multiple die rolls (with or without modifier), to send and email moves, it even creates individual game files for all participants where counter trays can be locked and protected from the oppontent, or to create a spectator file, where a game can be watched by an interested person. You use forward/backward buttons similar to those on a CD player to play the next step of your move and to watch your oppontents moves as a "movie" which can be halted at any time. It is a hell more comfortable than any A&A-PbeM tool I ever met and you never need a dice server any more, which accelerates gameplay (no, I don't get money from the cyberboard guys Wink.

I played A&A via PbEM under Dosmap, Winmap and similar tools (even without a grafic tool just with the actual board, emails and a dice server) and play many Cosims via Cyberboard or VASSAL.My experience told me that even the most complex cosims like ASL or Totaler Kreig! have a faster and smoother gameplay than A&A. VASSAL is a java based tool and allows you to play with people using any platform (such as Windows, Macintosh, Unix-Linux). In contrast to Germany or Europe many people in the US use Mac and lots of Wargamers use Linux. Playing A&A via the Windows only tools actually restricts Axis players rather than allowing them to play with people all over the world (but, I must admit, Cyberboard is limited to Wintel users, too). There are cyberboard modules and gameboxes for almost any known (and even unknown) wargame/cosim ever published, you can find them all over the internet, as well as the cyberboard programm itself (it's for free). VASSAL supports lots of games, too (the most important ones of course are ASL and SQL) and can bee freely downloaded to any platform. It allows PbEM play AND real-time play with chat on the VASSAL servers, which is a great innovation and helps to unite the community. Even if you don't want to play a game you can connect to the server (similar to IRC chat) and meet nice people from all over the world in the "main room" or watch a current game (you can even log it in a logfile and analyze it later, but, of course, you should ask before logging a game Wink.

Your argument that A&A allows you to play with people all over the world is not limited to Axis & Allies; in fact most cosim wargamers prefer and use PbEM because of the great and comfortable tools.


Regards,
Easy Company
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BeitragVerfasst am: Fr Jun 27, 2003 7:44 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Thank you, Easy Company for your information.
Sounds interesting. Is there a user portal and where can I find it?
If a module for "War for the motherland" exists I will surely give it a try. Smile
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BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jun 28, 2003 12:36 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Can you give me a link to a Page where I can find everything to play a CoSim, like the stuff here on DAAK (Rules, Maps, Dicey, ...)?
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BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jun 28, 2003 12:47 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Cu,

most people are willing to buy the games they want to play. If you are simply interested into a game that is for free (downloadable rules, downloadable maps, etc.) then stick with A&A...

I wonder why the DAAK has an english forum if no one seems to be able to take part in the debates anyway.

From what I could read on your page you call consims "freak's games" and it's obviously that in Germany the A&A scene has nothing to do with the consim scene. In the States both are part of the wargaming hobby and both groups do overlap much more.

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BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jun 28, 2003 9:27 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Panther,

I'm in bit of a hurry, but this is the cyberboard mainpage:
http://cyberboard.brainiac.com/
and here you can download the VASSAL engine:
http://www.vasl.org

There are tons of independent websites that host cyberboard and/or VASSAL modules, just ask your favourite search engine Good And if you got some time to spare you could do a game module for missing games yourself. I built a few Totaler Krieg scenario files, it's really easy and kinda fun.

Got to go,
Easy Company

PS: Interesting topic, Stahlregen, I will return to you when I'm back at home - leaving now for some weekend wargaming fun Twisted Evil
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achsenaxt
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BeitragVerfasst am: Sa Jun 28, 2003 11:12 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Stahlregen hat Folgendes geschrieben:
I wonder why the DAAK has an english forum if no one seems to be able to take part in the debates anyway.

Rolling
Very self-confident, mate!

Frankly, I think, the most important reason for guys at DAAK to ignore your topic is simply missing interest...

Achsenaxt
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BeitragVerfasst am: So Jun 29, 2003 9:02 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
Very self-confident, mate!


If you say so...

Zitat:
Frankly, I think, the most important reason for guys at DAAK to ignore your topic is simply missing interest...


Seems so. It's simply very unusual for a wargame club to have "missing interest" at such topics.

Play what you like and enjoy the silence..

I am off,

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BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 30, 2003 11:21 am    Titel: I don`t think so Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
most people are willing to buy the games they want to play.


That is an arument but why does everybody download music for free??? You have the possibility and so you do it. Today many people don`t want to spent much money for games because they have to save it for important things. If you can get a game for free, why shouldn`t you take it??? You shouldn`t judge about anyone. I know some guys in this club who spend more money in games than a car costs.

Zitat:
I wonder why the DAAK has an english forum if no one seems to be able to take part in the debates anyway.


You should be beware of the fact that english is not out native language an it is sometimes hard to follow or to write because school is lightyears away. Perhaps nobody wants to discuss your problem??

Zitat:
From what I could read on your page you call consims "freak's games" and it's obviously that in Germany the A&A scene has nothing to do with the consim scene. In the States both are part of the wargaming hobby and both groups do overlap much more.


I didn`t heard that anybody called them freak games. I think when you are interested in A & A it is obvious that you are interest in strategic games. If that is the case you should be interested in most kinds of
wargames who deal with strategy or tactics.

There are always discussion about other games here. For example in the "Sonstiges" Forum there were some discussions about other games.

But at last this a club made for playing A & A.
Here the overlapping is not so overwhelming but that is OK.
Perhaps this would be better,perhaps not but not everything that happens in the states is the best in the world and we have to copy it. If it comes so, Ok but if not we don`t care either.

Every club has to grow and has it`s changes, made by the members.
Perhaps it will change in the future...or perhaps not.

So take it easy. cool

Greetings Chris
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 30, 2003 11:55 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
That is an arument but why does everybody download music for free??? You have the possibility and so you do it. Today many people don`t want to spent much money for games because they have to save it for important things. If you can get a game for free, why shouldn`t you take it???


You miss the point. It seemed that this "all is for free" is an argument to play A&A stuff and not consims. At least this was what I got from the post by Cu. In my opinion that's an poor argument for A&A, that's all.

Zitat:
You shouldn`t judge about anyone.


I am not aware that I did...

Zitat:
I know some guys in this club who spend more money in games than a car costs.


So do I. But the question was why are you guys still happy with A&A when your own strategy folder shows that you are playing the same thing over and over again. There is a strict "strategic guideline" leading to victory in A&A (German must take Africa, Japan must go against Russia, American must support the Brits etc.) and I wonder how this can be seen as satisfying after all those years.


Zitat:
You should be beware of the fact that english is not out native language an it is sometimes hard to follow or to write because school is lightyears away.


I am aware of this, for it seems to be very obvious. And because of that I asked why do you have an english language forum then? English isn't my native tongue either.

Zitat:
Perhaps nobody wants to discuss your problem??


Here we have it again. All I do hear from you folks is -nobody is interested...

Zitat:
I didn`t heard that anybody called them freak games.


I found this somewhere here on your page. It was about consims = freak's games where you need 3 days for the set up only etc..

Zitat:
I think when you are interested in A & A it is obvious that you are interest in strategic games. If that is the case you should be interested in most kinds of
wargames who deal with strategy or tactics.


The point is that in Germany most A&A gamers are having problems with the sometimes heavy rulebooks. But A&A is not that strategic imho and for me it goes: the more rules you have, the deeper the gameplay gets...


Zitat:
There are always discussion about other games here. For example in the "Sonstiges" Forum there were some discussions about other games.


Yep, but all of them are belonging to the A&A kinda stuff.

Zitat:
But at last this a club made for playing A & A.
Here the overlapping is not so overwhelming but that is OK.
Perhaps this would be better,perhaps not but not everything that happens in the states is the best in the world and we have to copy it. If it comes so, Ok but if not we don`t care either.


I am not from the States, I am from Iceland and you are right, that not everything american is great per se. I wasn't after changing this club, but after an answer I am really interested in...


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BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 30, 2003 12:15 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Achsenaxt,

Achsenaxt hat Folgendes geschrieben:

Frankly, I think, the most important reason for guys at DAAK to ignore your topic is simply missing interest...

Achsenaxt


Achsenaxt,

that's simply not true. I don't think it's an uninteresting topic. The wargaming community lives through discussions - did you ever visit http://www.Consimword.com, where you can talk to wargamers from all over the world about literally every topic you can imagine? Arguing about different games, their pros and cons and why people play which games is one of the most interesting topics. People discuss freely and objectively without initiating flame wars and that's what we should do, too.

If Stahlregen cannot understand why we play Axis & Allies and enjoy this game while there are tons of complex consims like ASL, and why we still stick to such a simple game with an easy gameplay and limited strategic options, I think it's okay for him to ask this "heretic question". To boo him away and plainly tell him that his question is out of interst IMHO isn't the right approach to our great hobby.

If we don't talk about our games and why we play them, we don't need a community. In the US the Axis community isn't as isolated as the german one and people have no problem with freely admitting that they like to play both World in Flames, Advanced Third Reich and - Axis & Allies. I think that this is partly the Germs' fault. You tend to split yourself off from the wargaming community by avoiding any discussions about your game and why you play it.

Why don't you just tell Stahlregen why you think A&A to be a really cool game and why not all people love to play complex consims with 100+ rulebook pages? I like both "simple" fun wargames like A&A and hyper complex consim monsters like ASl or strategic consims like Totaler Krieg. There are simply moments and situations when you want to have some fun with friends, beer and pretzels, and moments when you want to toast your brain with complex matters like the political implications of operation Barbarossa - the german attack on Russia - and thus breaking the Hitler-Stalin-Pact as you can do in Totaler Krieg.
There are times when you want to crush the Axis by making an amphibious assault on Western Europe with tons of transporters, ground units and and air support and there are times when you want to plan a Normandy invasion via Cherbourg with a beachhead across the english channel while threatening Bremen and forcing the german player to protect his supply lines. Both game types are really cool and if Stahlregen doesn't understand or accept this - well, let's explain it to him!

If you think his thoughts to be heretic or not is irrelevant, if you don't like his tone you shouldn't forget that he probably isn't a native speaker, so that his question may sound a bit rude. But at least WE should always cling to the netiquette.

Achsenaxt, you may speak for yourself - that you aren't interested in discussions about cosims vs. wargames. But please don't speak for the whole wargaming community, for I am very interested in this exchange.


Bye for now,
Easy Company
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