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Heretic thought! Why still A&A???
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Curulin
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 30, 2003 1:09 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Stahlregen hat Folgendes geschrieben:
You miss the point. It seemed that this "all is for free" is an argument to play A&A stuff and not consims. At least this was what I got from the post by Cu. In my opinion that's an poor argument for A&A, that's all.


I'm just a student and I don't have a lot of money. I do own games worth a few hundred Euros, but I cannot afford to buy expensive games that I cannot play FtF anyway.
I know 3 people who own A&A and a few more who are willing to play it. Most of the gamers I know do not want to play A&A, because it is too complicated and it takes too long. They prefer playing Risk e.g. which is quite similar to A&A, just a lot easier to learn and to play.
Now if I buy myself a game that is even more complicated than A&A, I simply won't find anyone I could play with.
And if I want to play it exclusively via Internet, I can as well get myself a strategic computer game.
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 30, 2003 1:19 pm    Titel: @ Easy Company, Stahlregen: Antworten mit Zitat

@ EasyCo, Stahlregen:

my statement was just a joke. Play want you want. And discuss about whatever you want, even here. My God.

Bored regards
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 30, 2003 3:17 pm    Titel: OK Antworten mit Zitat

Ok, your right, we didnt answered on stahlregens question.

I play A & A because I want to play a game in my freetime that is not too complex but strategic. It`s the same why you play Risk on the evening with 2 or three friend. Everybody knows it and you don`t have to read the rules. You play and you have fun. Its a game that you can easily play "face to face". Perhaps I would play other games too, but my friends don`t want to play games where you play 3 days on one turn. I wouldn`t have the time for that.

I like complex games, too but I would be tired to read 150 pages before I can play a single move. Thats the reason why we played Axis in the beginning totally wrong. It was very funny.

Certainly the games is becomming the same sceme but when you are playing check it is the same. The fun to play a game doesn`t always comes by the complexability, than by the idea of the game. By the way I don`t know the games you said. But even when I would know them I would play Axis or World at war either.

I simply like this game. You have 5-10 hours of pure fun and after that you start again. In the first game Russia lost his army in the try to crush ukr and Mos was taken in round 2, sometimes the german player loses 4 Ftr and the Bomber in the first round.

Hey its the same game but it is interesting. I´m playind 3 games now and
every game has its own charme. That`s it.

Zitat:
If you think his thoughts to be heretic or not is irrelevant, if you don't like his tone you shouldn't forget that he probably isn't a native speaker, so that his question may sound a bit rude. But at least WE should always cling to the netiquette.


Thats for me a reason why I visit this threat not very often, because it is sometimes hart to understand jokes as offending and so on. I guess it`s for the readers of my threats the same. You will see this in the mistakes I make. So be aware of the linguistic Tiger... Rolling

Ok, thats all.

Chris
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Easy Company
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 30, 2003 5:07 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Tiger,

Tiger hat Folgendes geschrieben:
I simply like this game. You have 5-10 hours of pure fun and after that you start again. In the first game Russia lost his army in the try to crush ukr and Mos was taken in round 2, sometimes the german player loses 4 Ftr and the Bomber in the first round.


*lol* I know what you mean. That's the reason why I prefer a simple A&A game once in a while. If you play a complex cosim you have to worry about tons of stuff like supply lines, political consequences, treaty and production limits. You try to conquer real cities like Bremen, Stalingrad or Rome, to occupy Poland and garrison the cities.

In A&A you can do crazy things like shipping the japanese fleet into the Atlantic Ocean or build a factory in South Africa. In a consim, you always have to cling to the historic layout; experiments will be punished.
So you always recall the historic sequence, west first: Poland, France, Norway (I know that Poland is east of Germany geographically, but as a Western Allied Minor Country I count it as a western Allies in opposition to the Soviet Allies). When Germany has secured the West, crushed France and started the African campaign, it turns east. This was the historic sequence and this is the sequence you have to follow in strategic cosims.

You just can't do all these crazy little things we all love when playing A&A!

I remember an Axis & Allies game which was the craziest thing I ever experienced. We were playing with 3 players, I conducting the Allies while my friends were crushed down to the ground as Japan and Germany. Germany was literally reduced to its core motherland and had piled up 40+ Infantry to protect Berlin. Japan was held at bay by a very strong british Indian army and failed in the attempt to conquer Russia. Germany was surrounded by about 120 US/British forces and both Axis players argued about giving up and surrender to my overwhelming US power Smile They didn't, they decided to watch the final battle for Berlin. And then fate struck me - I lost all my british, my US and my russian forces in the attempt to liberate Berlin. It was the craziest battle I've ever seen, rolling high and higher, while the german defender was tossing tons of 1s or 2s. In the end my 3 allied armies were crushed and Germany survived with 3 Inf left. It was ME who finally surrendered. Okay, it was sheer luck - or let's say sheer BAD luck -, but shit happens, that's life! I lost 120 Inf, tons of tanks and fighters while fighting the Krauts in Berlin (no offense Wink) and lost a game which I dominated for hours and hours. Things like this happen when you play Axis & Allies and that's the true fun while drinking beer and eating sandwiches and wearing funny hats and helmets Prost

Life's too short to be too serious and most consims require high concentration and dedication to the rulebook. To learn a consim means months of learning and reading and historical research. This is a different hobby and can be fun, too.

Tiger, you're right when you say that you have problems finding FTF opponents for cosim games. There are definitely more people who play games like Axis or the so-called "Euro" or "German" games which are quite popular in the States, too (such as Settlers of Catan). People know the rules and you can sit down at a table and play in a minute. Same goes if you know people who can play Axis (or World at War). That's why Cosim players in the States are organized in local wargaming clubs, some even meet on a weekly basis. If all members know the rules of a monster cosim, it's as smooth as playing Risk

Tiger hat Folgendes geschrieben:
Perhaps I would play other games too, but my friends don`t want to play games where you play 3 days on one turn. I wouldn`t have the time for that.


By the way, World at War is very time consuming, too - I remember games that took some weekends to play. The first 6 turns until total war breaks out took 2 days sometimes because of the Axis' double turns). Some cosims are much faster than World at War. Totaler Krieg for example offers 3 tournament scenarios without politics, without complex rules - just a slam bam festival of crushing and fighting with big toys. These tournament scenarios called "Kriegsfest" take 1 afternoon to play and are as funny as an A&A game. The standard campaign, of course, the whole 2nd World War (starting 1939), takes a few months aarrgh

Stahlregen, I hope I made my position plain to you and you see why I like to play Axis & Allies AND complex cosims. This is no contradiction, you can have fun with both kinds of gameplay. It is true that A&A offers limited strategic options, but the few options offered are really freaky and funny. Not all people WANT to think about highly complex situations and the political implication on their road to Moscow. They simply want to CRUSH Moscow.



Regards,
Easy Company
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 30, 2003 6:57 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Thank you, Easy Company,

if everyone will follow your arguments and your way of argumentation this post will return to 'normal' conversation.

We are open for anything but politics!

Just be aware behind those posts are people, so please follow the rules you have learned from your mother....

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BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jun 30, 2003 10:07 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Curulin,

Zitat:
And if I want to play it exclusively via Internet, I can as well get myself a strategic computer game.


Lacking opponents is indeed an argument to base on regarding what games do I play/buy etc..

If you only have A&A folks around you it makes sense to play the game those guys know. But I fail to see how this changes the limited gameplay of A&A. If I have to make the decision to play a game which is _always_ the same and "tension" only comes from the dice results or to play a game over the internet that has tough strategic/tactical decisions - I certainly go for the latter. But of course that's only me...
BTW to play a computer strategic game is a lot different than playing with a buddy ASL over the net.

Achsenaxt,

Zitat:
my statement was just a joke. Play want you want. And discuss about whatever you want, even here. My God.

Bored regards


I don't get how your statement is to be seen as a joke, but ok. Thanx very much that you allow us to discuss such "boring" things here. We feel privileged now...

Tiger,

Zitat:
I play A & A because I want to play a game in my freetime that is not too complex but strategic.


I agree that A&A is everything but complex, but it's certainly nothing I would consider a "strategic game". Strategic games allow several strategic decisions each leading to various possibilities. A&A is more like a simple puzzle and when you solved it, your are thru. Every time you gonna play it again you only repeat those winning moves - where's the fun?


Zitat:
Perhaps I would play other games too, but my friends don`t want to play games where you play 3 days on one turn. I wouldn`t have the time for that.


I get the strong impression that you folks out there only know consims from hearsay, no?

You have the weird picture that all such games are megamonsters where you have to have a free week to get your set up done.
From my experience an A&A game takes much longer than a normal ASL scenario or TK scenario. Up Front scenarios can be played in less than an hour. So, time is not the main point in a decision to play A&A!

Zitat:
I like complex games, too but I would be tired to read 150 pages before I can play a single move.


If you've never actually played a consim (complex game) and you get tired by reading a big Rulebook what does it mean if you say that you like complex games? If everything what makes a consim is nothing you like what remains? the nice map? the funny little counters?
I don't understand your point with this...

Zitat:
Certainly the games is becomming the same sceme but when you are playing check it is the same.


I get it that you mean "chess" here. But chess is a very good example for a simple game (regarding the rules and the mechanics) with lots of strategic options. To compare A&A with chess - you can't be serious!

Zitat:
The fun to play a game doesn`t always comes by the complexability, than by the idea of the game. By the way I don`t know the games you said. But even when I would know them I would play Axis or World at war either.


I agree that the fun of a game does not depend on the complex mechanic alone, but as I said already, the more details a game allows the more fun the players have because many rules means lots of possibilities. It's that simple.

Maybe you should take a look at one of those consims unknown to you. How can you decide, if you only know this fun-wargame thingy?

Zitat:
You have 5-10 hours of pure fun and after that you start again.


IIRC an average A&A game lasts a lot longer. And that's the point:
I can't see any fun in playing the same moves over and over again and then starting that circle again. How can this be fun for you? Just to feel comfortable with the fact that's bloody easy to learn and to play can't be enough to define "fun"...

Easy,

Zitat:
So you always recall the historic sequence, west first:


You said that you play TK, too. You are not strictly limited to the historic sequence. In TK and many other games of this style it's up to you how you start the war.

Zitat:
You just can't do all these crazy little things we all love when playing A&A!


Thank God! A&A is a dice fest, no more no less.

Zitat:
Okay, it was sheer luck - or let's say sheer BAD luck -, but shit happens, that's life!


No, that's A&A. The whole game comes down to luck vs. bad luck. You know the "short as a women's cock A&A variant" ?
The players drink a cold beer while deciding who plays what; then the players drink another cold beer while shaking the die cup and then the side with the highest DR is the winner - and the players congratulate each other and drink another cold beer. That's the shortest A&A variant and it concentrates on the essentials of this game - dice! And it's also the most funny variant because the game doesn't distract you anymore from the source of fun when you play A&A - beer! Wink

Zitat:
This is a different hobby and can be fun, too.


That's something I also get from this "debate". A&A is another hobby than consiming. At least in Germany.

Zitat:
If all members know the rules of a monster cosim, it's as smooth as playing Risk


Yep, you've got it. And most of those monsters don't need every single rule all the time. The core rules are less than half of most heavy game's RB of this sort.

Zitat:
By the way, World at War is very time consuming, too - I remember games that took some weekends to play.


A&A at least has good rules - rules that work. WAW is a "black hole" in a box. The rules as given with the game are not playable so you must design yourself a thing that works. And even then WAW gives not more options but simply a longer gameplay of the same boring limited A&A game.

Zitat:
These tournament scenarios called "Kriegsfest" take 1 afternoon to play and are as funny as an A&A game.


These are cool scenarios that show you what a fast funny gameplay is all about - without creating a dice fest.

Zitat:
The standard campaign, of course, the whole 2nd World War (starting 1939), takes a few months


I have to disagree. The TK standard campaign is stuff for a long weekend - maybe 50 hours, not more. Months to play - that sounds more like WiF - or A&A as PbEM Smile

Zitat:
It is true that A&A offers limited strategic options, but the few options offered are really freaky and funny.


I don't get this, really. I play Germany and go for Africa the 1001th time, because if not I'll get kicked my butt. Where's the strategy, where's the option, where's the damn fun?

Zitat:
Not all people WANT to think about highly complex situations and the political implication on their road to Moscow. They simply want to CRUSH Moscow.



As you said: that's because we have two different branches of wargaming - the first depending more on War and the latter more on Game, but it doesn't explain how such a limited game can be fun for years...

That's still the question!

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BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jul 01, 2003 12:14 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

A&A does have quite a few strategic options. Just placing your bid differently can result in a completely different game. Did you ever try a Japan bid? The game where I built a bid IC in BUR was very interesting.
Also, in round 1 there are only a few good strategies. Every round you have more options to choose from.
If you look at the discussion boards, you will see, that almost all topics are about what to do in round 1. There has been only one thread about where the Japanese fleet should go after a Full Pearl.
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BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jul 01, 2003 11:14 am    Titel: stop Antworten mit Zitat

Hi.
I will stop discussing, because Stahlregen can`t understand my position.

You have fun with your game, I have fun playing A & A, risk or Twillight Imperium.

So we know what we want to play. Further discussions are useless and I`m getting tired of that.

Chris
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BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jul 01, 2003 1:11 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Im asking myself what Stahlregen is expecting from us.
To me it seems that he wants to read something like this:
" Oh, yes! Now that you are telling us we realize it, too! A&A is just a boring game with no strategy in it. And we played it all the years without recognizing that. We were so stupid. Thanks for enlighting us. Now we may proceed to the real wargames, COSIMS!"

Now this is said at last let me tell you the real point:

A&A has more than enough strategic options. We developed another combat resolution wich strongly reduces the influence of dice. This combat resolution is called LowLuck AA.
http://www.daak.de/lowluck/lowluckregel.php?sprache=e
If you play an LL AA email game against a good opponent you will see that there are a lot of tactical and strategic possibilities.

CoSims are more realistic but they do not necessarily have more strategic options. As Easy and I said before: Rules for cosims on a strategic or operational level often even cut down your strategic options because of the historical restrictions.

You wrote "for me it goes: the more rules you have, the deeper the gameplay gets..."
If that was true: Chess would be a good game for idiots!

But I guess you dont want to hear this because your mind is set.
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BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jul 01, 2003 3:16 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Tiger,

Zitat:
I will stop discussing, because Stahlregen can`t understand my position.


Isn't it a bit arrogant to say I can't understand your position? I thought it possible to get a debate going and I asked some serious questions regarding your last post. It seems more that you are tired of writing/reading english posts ? if that's the point you can write in German. As I said I am able to read it quite easily.


Zitat:
You have fun with your game, I have fun playing A & A, risk or Twillight Imperium.


Yes I have fun playing my games, but that's not the point. I don't want to convert anybody of you folks to consims or the like, but I am disappointed that you're not able or willing to defend your favourite against some good points. That's something new to me, for because I am very active in the wargame community (Easy mentioned CSW already) I am quite familiar with debates about the pros and cons of various games. Once I had a heavy debate with a A3R player and we engaged in a very heated debate A3R vs. TK and for both of us it was a very interesting conversation that did help us to understand the strengths and faults of our games. I get the impression that you feel offended that there's someone that tries to slaughter your "holy cow"...That isn't my intention, but of course I can't force you to share your thoughts with me.


Zitat:
So we know what we want to play. Further discussions are useless and I`m getting tired of that.


You declare that further debates are useless, but alas this was no real debate so far. Again, if english is the main problem switch over to your native language if that's less difficult.


Panther,


Zitat:
Im asking myself what Stahlregen is expecting from us.


I had the hope that the players in this A&A club are able to jump into a fruitful debate about their favourite game. As I said, if one is used to the discussion style on Consimworld etc.. it needs some time to realize that you define yourself as A&A gamers without any interest in debates beyond the horizon of your game.

Zitat:
To me it seems that he wants to read something like this:
" Oh, yes! Now that you are telling us we realize it, too! A&A is just a boring game with no strategy in it. And we played it all the years without recognizing that. We were so stupid. Thanks for enlighting us. Now we may proceed to the real wargames, COSIMS!"


That's an unnecessary offending style Panther, but ok, if that's your way to deal with visitors in your forum I take it that way. If you don't want to have open debates close those folders and limit the forum to rules and "strategy" questions only. That way you can minimize getting tired of such debates as we have it here.

Zitat:
A&A has more than enough strategic options.


I can't see them...Give me an example -say - for the German player. What options do I have with Germany in A&A ? - options that make sense, of course.????

Zitat:
We developed another combat resolution wich strongly reduces the influence of dice. This combat resolution is called LowLuck AA.


I know low luck. It doesn't change the limited options, though. The lack of strategic possibilities depends on the simplistic game mechanic, not the randomness of the combat system. Even your bidding procedure does not change this. Bidding is only necessary for poor games that don't allow different games with the given rules. But again, low luck or bidding, both are unconnected to the mechanics of the game.

Zitat:
CoSims are more realistic but they do not necessarily have more strategic options.


Dare I ask, what consims have you played so far?
As an example: take "Fire in the East" (belonging to the well known Europa series) where the city Leningrad alone has about 40 hexes. Such maps allow maneuver and you can actually fight outside and inside the city and this fight about Leningrad alone has a good deal more strategic options than a whole A&A game.

The point is, that you are not only propagating A&A as a fun game and telling us that it has plenty options, but you do compare it with consims, too. But it seems that you don't know any consim by your own experience, for all those things aren't true. All I get to hear is that you guys are "very interested" in complex games, too - but you never played them. How can you decide what's the better ground for strategic competition, then?

Zitat:
As Easy and I said before: Rules for cosims on a strategic or operational level often even cut down your strategic options because of the historical restrictions.


Easy at least knows such games by experience. But as I said, his point with the historical restriction isn't always true, either. It depends on the game. And even if there are historical restrictions then this has nothing to do with the possibilities of the game itself. If I play "Air Assault on Crete" I of course have the "historical restriction" to fight on Crete instead of switching the whole battle over to Norway, but this restriction has nothing to do with the game mechanics and that's what gives opportunities or cuts them off. You know by yourself that there are many attempts to make A&A more realistic and more interesting. DAAK has the Baker rules as a downloadable file, no? So, even folks who like this game see it's limitations and want to overcome them.


Zitat:
You wrote "for me it goes: the more rules you have, the deeper the gameplay gets..."
If that was true: Chess would be a good game for idiots!


Ah, another DAAK joke...It needs some time to get used to this humor, though.
You know that this is bullshit, don't you?
We didn't talk about chess and although it's true that chess is maybe the oldest wargame out there it's a rather abstract game. You can't compare chess with wargames as we know them today, because of the level of details and the overall mechanics. My statement counts for those wargames and with regard to them this opinion is still valid.


Zitat:
But I guess you dont want to hear this because your mind is set.


Another perfect "winning move" to end every debate _you_ don't want to hear. Whose mind is set now?

Btw, for this folder attracts about over 300 checkings so far it seems that some people do have interest in the topic. But only a few are able to take part into the debate, so I again get the impression that it has more to do with the language than with the "missing interest". If so, I would think over your decision to have an english folder at all.

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TIGER
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BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jul 01, 2003 4:44 pm    Titel: ok another one.... Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
Isn't it a bit arrogant to say I can't understand your position?


OK, if this sounds arrogant then I say: You don`t want it perhaps. I don`t have to argue because I explained my point. I guess in your point of view theses weren`t arguments. I only told you why I play A & A. That´s it. No Offending just my opinion. I like to play this game and I don`t have to bring argumets for or against that. I only want to tell you why I play the game not discuss about it.


Zitat:
I get the impression that you feel offended that there's someone that tries to slaughter your "holy cow"...
T

I don`t think so but as I said I just wanted to tell my point of view. Your post sounded a little like: Hey your idiots. Why do you play that stupid game?? And if anyone interpretes this as your opinion it`s reaction will be
an angry one.

Zitat:
You declare that further debates are useless, but alas this was no real debate so far. Again, if english is the main problem switch over to your native language if that's less difficult.


Please keep in mind, that I don`t know the games you mentioned. So I cannot debate with you.

So, now I will go in holidays.

See you in a week.
Chris
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BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jul 01, 2003 7:57 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
OK, if this sounds arrogant then I say: You don`t want it perhaps.


Not an improvement I would say ...

Zitat:
I don`t have to argue because I explained my point. I guess in your point of view theses weren`t arguments. I only told you why I play A & A. That´s it.


Yep, I don't think that your "arguments" do help to understand how you - as a long year (I suppose) A&A player - still enjoy the same thing over and over. The question was not why do you play A&A, the question was why do you find it still fun...You answered the wrong question, buddy.


Zitat:
No Offending just my opinion. I like to play this game and I don`t have to bring argumets for or against that. I only want to tell you why I play the game not discuss about it.


Your first point: see above. Let me repeat it - it's very unusual for a wargamer - even a player of fun-wargames - not to be interested into a fruitful debate about his game.
Why not discussing your game? Are you afraid that you run out of arguments?

Zitat:
Your post sounded a little like: Hey your idiots. Why do you play that stupid game?? And if anyone interpretes this as your opinion it`s reaction will be
an angry one.


Well, I concede that english seems to be a very difficult thing to most of you, so you're likely to get something totally wrong. Let me assure you if that would be my opinion I had said that in exactly such clear words. That's not my opinion, so there's no need for all the angry replies. It was - and still is - my serious question and it remains unanswered, alas.


Zitat:
Please keep in mind, that I don`t know the games you mentioned. So I cannot debate with you.


Although that's a point, my basic question has nothing to do with it. You don't need to know those games to tell me how you can have fun with such a limited gameplay.
Btw it was you who said, that you do like complex games. Which one have you ever played? Don't say WAW please - that's not a complex game. And you also said even if you would know them you would keep playing A&A/WAW....

Such an attitude seems not very - let's say - open minded.

Zitat:
So, now I will go in holidays.


I wish you a relaxing vacation....

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TIGER
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Anmeldedatum: 12.06.2002
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BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jul 01, 2003 11:44 pm    Titel: a Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
Yep, I don't think that your "arguments" do help to understand how you - as a long year (I suppose) A&A player - still enjoy the same thing over and over. The question was not why do you play A&A, the question was why do you find it still fun...You answered the wrong question, buddy.


In my opinion the game has more possibilities that you think. Every country has one to three options what aim ha wants. Germany wants to conquer Africa with power to get IPC, or4 it tries to crush the russian or he is building a fleet to crush the allies fleet, You try to Bomb the Russian down or you place a Bid where you can incade England in the first turn., Irt depends on your opponend how he is reacting on that. thats just an example. That and the relatively easy handling is for me an argument.
Is this answering your question?

Zitat:
Why not discussing your game? Are you afraid that you run out of arguments?


No, I want to, play not argue about it, becaue I´m not a politician....

Zitat:
That's not my opinion, so there's no need for all the angry replies. It was - and still is - my serious question and it remains unanswered, alas.


Then it`s Ok. I hope I was able to answer your question partly...


Zitat:
You don't need to know those games to tell me how you can have fun with such a limited gameplay.


We don`t have to explain. Why do some peolpe like techno music while others think this is rubbish???You have to accept it.

Zitat:
Btw it was you who said, that you do like complex games. Which one have you ever played? Don't say WAW please - that's not a complex game. And you also said even if you would know them you would keep playing A&A/WAW....


What do you think ias complex?? Aks a woman to play A & A and after 5 Secods of explaining she will say: Hey forget it, this is too complex.
For me A & A is complexly enough to have fun. Some people don`t want to learn chess (not check, you`r right Laughing ) or Skat od Doppelkopf (these are card games) because they find it too complex. Ok, I cannot change that.
When theiy are happy with that why should I argue about that?

Zitat:
Such an attitude seems not very - let's say - open minded.


Thats a point of view...

Zitat:
I wish you a relaxing vacation....


Thanx but it will be more an adventure I guess.

p.s.: Sorry, when I wrote more mistakes than before but I was out drinking... Laughing And so: Prost

Chris
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jul 02, 2003 11:03 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Tiger,

Zitat:
n my opinion the game has more possibilities that you think. Every country has one to three options what aim ha wants. Germany wants to conquer Africa with power to get IPC, or4 it tries to crush the russian or he is building a fleet to crush the allies fleet, You try to Bomb the Russian down or you place a Bid where you can incade England in the first turn., Irt depends on your opponend how he is reacting on that. thats just an example. That and the relatively easy handling is for me an argument.
Is this answering your question?



Not really, but we come close to my main point, now. The options you mentioned are the _only_ ones you have in this game. Every game will see the German grasping Africa because he needs the IPC. The first move is to invade Africa, every game, for without those IPCs Germany is doomed. The German player will almost always go against Russia and that counts for the Japanese, too. So you'll have this double-attack against Russia every game you play. That's the reason in our gaming group no one wanted to play the Russian because he was the first one kicked out of the game - every game! With bidding there may be a greater chance to do an invasion of Britain, but even then it's not the best move if you want to win (and Bidding is - as I said - making the game more interesting, so that shows the original rules aren't sufficent for a fun experience).

So, Tiger, all those options are not the beginning of "strategic thinking" in A&A, it's the end. There's no more into that game - and that's my point!

Zitat:
No, I want to, play not argue about it, becaue I´m not a politician...


That's something special then to German players.

Zitat:
We don`t have to explain. Why do some peolpe like techno music while others think this is rubbish???You have to accept it.


I do accept it. But what's the sense of having a forum, if you are not interested in "explaining"??? The question why do you like game x and not game y is only partly a matter of taste. A&A is well known for it's high heft factor, but also for it's limited gameplay. The first can easily make people jump into the hobby but most players will switch over to games that alow more options. And now it's interesting why some do not.

Zitat:
What do you think ias complex?? Aks a woman to play A & A and after 5 Secods of explaining she will say: Hey forget it, this is too complex.


I would rank ASL, A3R, the late SL gamettes etc.. as complex games.
And woman and complexity:
Depends on the woman you know, I suppose. We have two babes in our group that are hard as nails ASL players for about 6 years now. Tell them that you think A&A is too complex for them - you better run...

Zitat:
For me A & A is complexly enough to have fun.


That's what makes me wonder...

Zitat:
p.s.: Sorry, when I wrote more mistakes than before but I was out drinking...


no problem, as long as I can figure out your main points, it should work.


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BeitragVerfasst am: Mi Jul 02, 2003 11:57 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Zitat:
Was ich mich wirklich frage ist:
Warum kann man nicht den direkten reinen A&A-Weg des daak verlassen und einen Taktik-/Wargaming-Highway beschreiten?



I just saw this question in one of the other folders and it seems that even DAAK members are not really satisfied with A&A stuff alone. Aquapanik (i think he was it that asked this question) wants to open the club and to incorporate wargames in general.

I take this as a sign, that my question how one can get satisfaction out of A&A over all the years is a valid one.

What about your opinion Aquapanik? Did I misinterpret you in any way?
I don't think so...

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