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Question on Rule 3.2

 
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Deltium
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Anmeldedatum: 04.08.2016
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BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jun 20, 2017 3:34 am    Titel: Question on Rule 3.2 Antworten mit Zitat

I have a question on Rule 3.2. Here are the facts in an existing game:

(1) In AAR, I attacked Z7 on UK1 with a 2 figs + bomber + BB + T. Germany defended with the usual 2 subs + DD + T.

(2) I rolled BOTH the attacker dice AND the defender dice, BUT I stopped after rolling Round 1 to ask for OOL.

(3) In Round 1 UK scored 2 hits and Germany scored ONE hit.

(4) My opponent indicated OOL as T, sub, sub, DD.

HOWEVER, my opponent then claimed that I needed to roll the defender DICE again, and he did NOT want to honor the defender dice.

Rule 3.2 does NOT indicate that you need to roll the defender dice AGAIN, but ONLY to ask for OOL BEFORE rolling Round 2 of battle.

Can you please advise if defender dice need to be rolled again? If so, this does NOT make sense because no matter what the defender selects as his OOL, it does NOT matter what the defender dice are in Round 1 !

Of course, I would NOT roll Round 2 before asking for the OOL.

Please clarify this rule.

Thank you, Deltium
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polarole
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Anmeldedatum: 11.07.2007
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BeitragVerfasst am: So Jul 02, 2017 12:01 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

hi deltium,

this is just my opinion and i am not a daakrules expert, but i have some serious playing experiences.

i think you a voluntarily giving an edge to the defender the usual procedure would be to roll attacker only then he has to pick losses before he is rolling himself, so now he can chose losses after he knows how many hits he scored, which is giving him an advantage. i dont see any point in asking for a reroll from the point of the defender, but if you need a decision ask the ministers.

bye
polarole
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Pernaug
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Anmeldedatum: 06.03.2005
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BeitragVerfasst am: So Jul 02, 2017 2:25 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

3.2 club rules

Under certain circumstanced a OOL-stop is mandatory. In this case the attacker rolls the dice for his attacking units and then must ask his opponent for the OOL. Only after the OOL has been communicated the battle continues. This principle holds for every round of combat unless the defender states an OOL for the entire fight.

3.2 clearly states that you have to stop after rolling the attacker.

The defender can ask for a reroll or the attacker can reroll if he by accident rolled both.
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polarole
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BeitragVerfasst am: So Jul 02, 2017 6:05 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

hi,

seems extremly weird to me, whats the reasoning behind that rule if there is any?
attacker just gives the defender extra free information and the defender may claim a reroll, that doesnt sound very smart and enforces a slower game too. i can off course see the point of stopping before rolling the defender from the attackers point of view.

bye
ole
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Pernaug
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BeitragVerfasst am: So Jul 02, 2017 11:52 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

The answer is simplicity.

The rule avoids disputes. The rule simply says that you have to stop after the attacker - no discussions, no complexity. The rule can be enforced by both parties.
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Deltium
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BeitragVerfasst am: Di Jul 04, 2017 9:55 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

I agree with Polarole -- that is not a fair rule to implement. I do, however, agree that the defender should be allowed to select their OOL before the roll of the SECOND round, but giving the defender the opportunity to ask the attacker to roll the Round 1 attacking dice AGAIN does not make sense. The defender is not harmed in any way in selecting the OOL by knowing the dice, and in fact, has an ADVANTAGE by knowing the dice.

I recommend that the rule simply be amended that an OOL stop must occur, but that the attacking dice do NOT need to be rolled again. In my case, the original dice indicated an extra hit in SZ7, but when I had to roll it a second time, I didn't get the extra hit, and my opponent BENEFITED materially by the interpretation of this rule. That does not seem fair or right.

Please reconsider amending the rule. Thank you, Deltium


Pernaug hat Folgendes geschrieben:
The answer is simplicity.

The rule avoids disputes. The rule simply says that you have to stop after the attacker - no discussions, no complexity. The rule can be enforced by both parties.
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fighter
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BeitragVerfasst am: So Jul 09, 2017 9:52 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Its one rule of the game, that first the attacker roll the dice and the defender has to declare the OOL, then the defender roll the dice and the Attacker has to declare his OOL. This is a main rule for ALL battles.

To speed the game by Internet we decided, that many battles are done attacker AND defender dice together without asking for OOL, but taking the DAAK-OOL. In some special cases, where OOL-stop is requested (Rule 3.2), we had decided, that the OOL-stop still must be done. If not, the defender-dice had to be rerolled.

So with rule 3.2 we made the game faster, not slower.

This rules are for all players the same.

Please read all the rules from DAAK. Rule 6.4.6 says: Defender dice must be rerolled.
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Deltium
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BeitragVerfasst am: So Jul 09, 2017 10:00 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

I am OK with the OOL stop, as that part of the rule makes sense, and I agree that one must stop and select the OOL before the next round. However, my issue is with rolling the defending dice again. That part of the rule is unfair, since there is no harm to the defender in knowing the defending dice at that stage.

Perhaps you could give me an example where the defender is worse off, and where this rule is needed?

In my case, due to the interpretation of this rule, I was most certainly worse off.

I am perfectly OK with rules, and in fact, I am glad that Daak has many rules to avoid any confusion or unnecessary disputes. However, this rule is not fair, and I am simply asking for it to be reviewed again.

Thank you, Deltium



fighter hat Folgendes geschrieben:
Its one rule of the game, that first the attacker roll the dice and the defender has to declare the OOL, then the defender roll the dice and the Attacker has to declare his OOL. This is a main rule for ALL battles.

To speed the game by Internet we decided, that many battles are done attacker AND defender dice together without asking for OOL, but taking the DAAK-OOL. In some special cases, where OOL-stop is requested (Rule 3.2), we had decided, that the OOL-stop still must be done. If not, the defender-dice had to be rerolled.

So with rule 3.2 we made the game faster, not slower.

This rules are for all players the same.

Please read all the rules from DAAK. Rule 6.4.6 says: Defender dice must be rerolled.
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fighter
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BeitragVerfasst am: So Jul 09, 2017 10:12 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Hi Deltium,

highest rule at DAAK is: If there is a mistake happend, the dice have to be rerolled from the point, where the mistake happend.

In your case, it was a mistake, to roll the defender dice ==> the dice for the defender must be rerolled. It doesn´t matter, how many hits the defender made. It must be rerolled.

This is the solution, everybody playing here, has to know. Therefore: Please read the DAAK-rules and use it. And you will see, that there will be more less diskussions about mistakes.

Since we have this rules, the number of diskussions is going more and more down.

Just accept this and you will be fine with it.
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Deltium
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BeitragVerfasst am: So Jul 09, 2017 10:19 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Hello - thank you for your input on this point, but we disagree on the accuracy of the rule, which I believe to be unfair.

If you can give me ONE example where the rule protects or helps the defender, then I will drop my point. However, I cannot conceive of a situation where the defender dice need to be rolled again, and where the defender is harmed in any any way if they are not.

Rules are great, but rules can certainly be amended if they are later viewed as incomplete or unfair.

For emphasis, I state again that I fully support the rules at Daak. I also appreciate that there are members here to give their opinion. As evidence, you have the #1 ranked player (Polarole) disagreeing with the rule as well.

Is it not fair to take a fresh look at this rule? This is not just one person disagreeing with the rule, or the interpretation.

Again, I am just asking for you to provide the REASON why the defending dice need to be rolled again, when I cannot see the rationale or the logic. Using the argument that it is an existing rule, without providing the logic, is not helpful.

Thank you, Deltium



fighter hat Folgendes geschrieben:
Hi Deltium,

highest rule at DAAK is: If there is a mistake happend, the dice have to be rerolled from the point, where the mistake happend.

In your case, it was a mistake, to roll the defender dice ==> the dice for the defender must be rerolled. It doesn´t matter, how many hits the defender made. It must be rerolled.

This is the solution, everybody playing here, has to know. Therefore: Please read the DAAK-rules and use it. And you will see, that there will be more less diskussions about mistakes.

Since we have this rules, the number of diskussions is going more and more down.

Just accept this and you will be fine with it.
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fighter
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BeitragVerfasst am: So Jul 09, 2017 10:49 pm    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

It is a main rule of the game A+A, that the defender is not allowed to know how many hits he has, when he declares his OOL. Not a rule of DAAK, but a rule of the game. You have to ask the producer of the game, why he made this rule.

We changed this rule a little bit to speed up playing by Internet. But in some cases this rule makes really sense. These are the cases, where the OOL-stop is requested. If you change this rule completely, you change also the game a little bit.

The DAAK wanted, that the game is playable by Internet without loosing the character of the game. Therefore the rules of DAAK are made as they are. Rules changed sometimes, when there were problems with it. The last change of the rules were done several years ago, and since now, the rules were ok for everyone as they are. And everybody is ok with it.

And why is this rule not fair??? It is a mistake to roll the dice for defender! So the dice must be rerolled. It must be rerolled, when the dice were great for the defender and it must be rerolled, when the dice were bad. Reroll must be done in every case. This rule is not for helping or protecting the defender. Its just: mistake = reroll. Thats all. This rule is for to avoid discussions about how to clear a mistake. Not more.

And if you wanna change the rules, feel free, to open a new thread asking other members of DAAK about this rule.
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BeitragVerfasst am: Mo Jul 10, 2017 1:01 am    Titel: Antworten mit Zitat

Thanks Fighter for laying out the reasons why the rule is how it is.

1. AA-Rules are clearly stating the process of battle resolution:
a) attacker rolls
b) defender chooses casualties
c) defender rolls
d) attacker chooses casualties

2. DAAK has standard OOLs, so (unless otherwise specified by the defenders) the battles can be fully resolved by the attacker unless the OOL describe a stop

3. If a OOL stop should have called but was not done (and the attacker or the defender want a reroll) then the reroll must occur from the point where the error occured. As can you see clearly from point one this is after a), so the defender must be rerolled

These rules are consistent with AA and DAAK rules. Exceptions would only create unclearity and confusion.
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